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Pokemon Amethyst Version - OOC and SU

Discussion in 'Archive' started by Destiny, May 13, 2014.

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  1. May 16, 2014 #41
    Destiny

    Destiny Guest

    I'm literally taking it straight from the game. I mean the level thing doesn't matter, though I've definitely always had it jump a few level in the rival battle, but I can make it level 6, as for the match, it's the same thing all based on the game. And it's not god mod seeing as that is what that pokemon can do, it's how those moves work and interact. The attack is stronger on Riolu the zorua otherwise with the same amount of moves if they were equal, would of won the match, further though quick attack is a priority move, meaning it gets to go first. Dig out the game and test it out for yourself.
     
  2. May 16, 2014 #42
    King of Darkness

    King of Darkness What up Monica

    Alright, so after running some damage calc, which I highly recommend all of you to use because that's what i had planned on using and assumed you all as wel, and reading on the experience and how it works, this is what I have found:

    First of all, as far as the battle goes, I simulated a battle between the Riolu and Zorua. Now, had the battle gone exactly the way it was shown in the RP, TECHNICALLY Zorua was winning. I will have you know that at level five their attacks and defenses are exactly the same, and I gave them both 15 IV's for the sake of doing so. And even with that, Zorua is faster by one point and has a higher Special Attack stat, but the latter is not relevant. The damage I dealt out was the bare minimum percentage that would have been dealt out in the battle.

    The battle should actually still be going with both of them with 5.4% health left. That, however, is based on the assumption that we follow that incredibly sloppy battle. Destiny, you cannot take an attack and then deal quick attack, followed by using another quick attack.

    As far as leveling up is concerned, Riolu would only be able to level up one level, one and a half at the very most, based on the formula for leveling up which I will provide at the end of this post along with the damage calc.


    Lol, don't play the game if ya don't know the rules :3

    Experience - Bulbapedia, the community-driven Pokémon encyclopedia
    A Pokemon Calculator (Note, as this uses professional moves and not amateur moves like scratch, I used quick attack in it's place as it contains the same base power and typing)
    Psypoke Tools :: Damage Calculator (Decent calc I thought I'd throw in since it contains every move)

    (Posted right when Destiny posted above me. Quick attack is not "stronger" on Riolu. That is 100% wrong. If you mean it was a STAB move, it is not. Quick Attack is a normal type move and Riolu is a Fighting type. He get's no special advantage whatsoever)
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2014
  3. May 16, 2014 #43
    Taboo Sho

    Taboo Sho The Math Emperor Staff Member Moderator Content Writer

    I double checked KoD's calculations and have come out with the exact same data. This battle should not end in Riolu's favor.

    In essence, Riolu cannot win if every hit is guaranteed. I can without a doubt confirm that.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2014
  4. May 16, 2014 #44
    Angel

    Angel Lion Heart Staff Member Administrator

    Yeah, I was thinking; the battle would have went down something like this:

    Detect (Goes first)
    Scratch ( Not effective)

    Quick Attack (Riolu)
    Copy Cat (Zorua)

    Quick Attack
    Copy Cat

    Quick Attack
    Copy Cat

    Pursuit (the finishing blow)
    Quick Attack (can't use because it fainted.)
     
  5. May 16, 2014 #45
    King of Darkness

    King of Darkness What up Monica

    Unless she used quick attack, which is a priority move meaning that it will always go first. So the final blow would have been another quick attack. Gotta love the cop out move quick attack, lol.
     
  6. May 16, 2014 #46
    Angel

    Angel Lion Heart Staff Member Administrator

    I'm pretty sure. Pursuit is the highest priority. Isn't it?

    EDIT: Yeah, it's +7 priority.

    EDIT EDIT: Only on a switch. Total (Noob)
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2014
  7. May 16, 2014 #47
    Become

    Become Resident Tashian Staff Member Moderator Content Writer

    Sounds like KoD put in some good research.

    The instance of god moding that was referring to was that it seemed that the Zorua's Quick Attack seemed to account for nothing against Riolu.

    The game's mechanism for battling is, in many ways, contradictory to the rules of our RPing medium; particularly because, more often than not, they see attacks landing unless a Pokemon's accuracy is decreased. Overall, this element of the game's battle system would, inherently, undermine the rules against power playing and auto hitting, which are part of the core rules of our medium.

    Unless we're going to use the fully math-based system for combat and leveling up, we need to regard role playing rules at a bit higher a regard than the way things worked in the games, otherwise we'll be breaking our own basic principles.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2014
  8. May 16, 2014 #48
    Taboo Sho

    Taboo Sho The Math Emperor Staff Member Moderator Content Writer

    Last edited: May 16, 2014
  9. May 16, 2014 #49
    King of Darkness

    King of Darkness What up Monica

    Angel just taught me something really new actually. Thanks for that one amigo, definitely going to look into that move for a team now...

    And as for the god modding, I had caught that bit too as Riolu seemed to act as a tank when it came to some of those moves. Also, it's very true that unless we adjust this RP in someway, every attack will most likely hit. I know, personally, that every attack Typhlosion learns has 100% accuracy (or at least any move I would put on him)
     
  10. May 16, 2014 #50
    Destiny

    Destiny Guest

    I've always remember beating through rivals quickly usually around the 3rd or 4th round. So the length of time I understand, but quick attack is highest priority move, so even if it went on longer moves Riolu would have still won (as now being pointed out).

    I honestly would prefer not to have battling among the players, honestly, only because there are issues with RP rules, I personally would rather battle a made up character.

    If for battling though among one another, perhaps Wayward, you and I can try to come up with a system for this.

    Also another thing I want to bring to attention because it is one thing I've been annoyed about, if battling, don't make only one post every 12 hours, everybody is stuck waiting around then and that leads to higher chance of the RP dying.

    Edit: as for the godmod, it wasn't god mod considering I was sticking to the nature of the RP. It was a tank action.

    As for the point about the double quick attack, it was because technically the quick attack should of went before the move Angel posted, but I didn't get to post that chance, so the moves went like this.


    Riolu: Detect
    Zorua: Scratch

    Riolu: Scratch
    Zorua: Quick Attack

    Riolu: Quick Attack
    Zorua: Copy Cat

    Zorua: Pursuit
    Riolu: Quick Attack (technically should go first)

    If this pattern continues, Riolu would win. And it's not an issue of being a tank, it's a matter of the pokemon being a pokemon.

    If you guys would like we can keep the battle going, knowing the results would still be the same, but also Angel, you need to post sooner that longer.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 16, 2014
  11. May 16, 2014 #51
    NeRo

    NeRo Your Supreme Lord And Savior Staff Member Administrator

    Augh..can we not stat crunch. It ruins the fun. Rather for me it ruins the immersion of the element to have a battle already scoped out via levels, hit/miss ratios, and the like. I can understand how for a RP like pokemon can have it but if were also basing this off the anime. There were many battles including the ones ash were in where he as at a disadvantageous state and still won.

    It's partially why i don't like when Rp's use health points. attack points the the like. Gets too technical for me. It's also why i never played pokemon seriously. Way too much number/stat calculations for me. Again this is all coming from my personal outlook on things. It's as Wayward said.

    we need to regard role playing rules at a bit higher a regard than the way things worked in the games
     
  12. May 16, 2014 #52
    Become

    Become Resident Tashian Staff Member Moderator Content Writer

    I think the traditional means of RP combat should work fine if we just use the canon information as a reference point to determine things like how long a particular battle should maintain, how much hurt a Pokemon can take, etc. Somehow we just need to be mindful not to power play and whatnot; that means that, even if an attack should hit, it's not up to us to declare what happens to an opponent's Pokemon; we're all pretty reasonable though, and I can't see anyone here not taking the hits and damages that they should; though I do think that we should incorporate more active combat elements in some capacity, such as being able to actively attempt to evade attacks and such (Pokemon do have evasion factors in games, just never an actual stat attached to it, unfortunately).

    That first part of your post with Riolu just standing there unphased can be considered a god mode, because it should have taken damage from the copied Quick Attack; from the post, it didn't seem like anything had happened to it.

    The way I see this battle thus far:

    First Round: Scratch vs. Detect = No damage to either party.

    Second Round: Scratch vs. Quick Attack = Quick Attack does damage to Zorua.

    Third Round: Copycatted Quick Attack vs. Quick Attack = As stated, Zorua is speedier than Riolu, therefore, Riolu takes damage from the copycatted move.

    Round 4: Pursuit vs. Quick Attack = if we wish to go by some trace of game mechanics, Pursuit is beat out by Quick Attack because it only take priority when the target is being switched out. Zorua would take damage.

    I think the big question that needs to be answered is: does the use of Quick Attack in the combat method being applied prevent the attacks it's being set against from happening? Would Riolu's use of Quick Attack have meant that Zorua's use of scratch was stopped?

    Either way, as I see it, both Pokemon would, after the fourth round of battle, be at roughly the same place in terms of fatigue and battle damage. The outcome would be determined, probably, within the next two rounds. If we had to define it in terms of the health bar, they would both probably be in the yellow (assuming that the quick attacks kept opponents from making a move) or in the red (assuming that all attacks that occurred were mounted successfully.
     
  13. May 17, 2014 #53
    Desert Warrior

    Desert Warrior Well-Known Member

    Edited Gible's moveset with some egg moves. Dragon Rage has been replaced by Dragon Breath and Protect has been replaced with Metal Claw.

    Now, about our current little debacle. Here's my two cents on the whole thing, since everybody is having fun talking about it.

    First, I wholeheartedly agree with Vox. We shouldn't stat crunch in this. I can't see anything good coming from doing so. As a corollary to that, having characters talk about stats and move strengths like they're reading the info off of a piece of paper is a bit off putting. Nobody talks like that in the anime, and nobody talks about move strengths (i.e. pointing out Quick Attack has an attack power of 40) in the game. Reading the posts, I'm thinking to myself: "Seriously? They're talking like they're lecturing somebody who is playing the video games for the first time?" While this last bit is totally personal opinion, we still shouldn't stat crunch.

    Second, in a fight between 2 Lvl. 5 Pokemon with absolutely no moves that are super-effective against each other neither Pokemon is gonna faint after 3 hits that connected. I will say that logically Riolu would have a slightly higher amount of HP compared to Zorua due to Zorua using Pursuit and Pursuit being ineffective. But it would still take one more hit to make either of them faint. Now, this is not taking into consideration the critical hit Destiny did with the first use of Quick Attack. Lemme talk about that in another paragraph so this one isn't too wordy.

    Third, there is no way Riolu could ever gain 2 levels from that fight. Destiny, if you have had a Pokemon gain 2 levels after your first rival fight then you are either incredibly lucky or the game glitched or something. I have been playing the games ever since Red and Blue came out (As I'm sure everybody else has) and I have never once gained more than one level from that fight. Not only that but since KoD did the calculations for Exp, any sort of claim of "I've had a 2 level jump after the first rival fight" holds absolutely no ground.

    As for leveling up throughout the RP, it is gonna be a pain to bother with doing actual calculations. So here's my suggestion. Everybody can level up every couple of fights but we should keep it within reason and keep the level range within the level range of whichever gym we're working on beating. That seems fair and seems like proper pacing.

    Back to the critical hit. Reading the conversation above, this detail seems to be grossly overlooked and I feel that it can have a major influence on the fight. Considering the possible damage done with the first Quick Attack being a crit, I can understand Zorua fainting after three hits instead of four. So with that aspect, I see no problem. Personally though, the fact that a critical hit actually happened bugs me somewhat. Considering how rare they are without crit ratio boosting moves (Slash) or moves that guarantee crits every time (Frost Breath), having them actually happen in one of our fights is something that I personally do not think we should do. By enabling us to decide if a move makes a critical hit, it tips the balance too far. Anybody could suddenly pull off a critical hit the moment they're about to lose and then suddenly achieve victory. So at the very least, the option of attacks making a critical hit should be voted upon by everybody so it can be fair.

    I believe that is all I have to say at the moment. If there is anything else, I cannot think of it.
     
  14. May 17, 2014 #54
    Become

    Become Resident Tashian Staff Member Moderator Content Writer

    The critical, again, ties into the issue of the power playing (a la auto hitting), which has been the thorn in my side with this battle. I'm not sure how much weight it can hold in this situation since it was dealt as a forced hit, which I think of really should have been up to Angel whether or not the critical actually carried through. That comes back to what you say at the end of this paragraph, that critical damage should be something agreed upon by combatants. As a supporter of using realistic approaches to RP combat, I see critical hits as coming largely from the factor of where you are hitting your opponent (IE punching someone in the stomach will, generally, have more impact than punching them in the arm); we can aim for critical blows, but it's ultimately more up to our opponent if and to what extent those blows affect them.

    Otherwise I agree with everything else you've had to say.

    At this point I think we should just see how Angel feels about the situation and let them work things out with Destiny on how to actually move forward. I really don't intend to post until the battle's conclusion has been reached, unless I have to otherwise.
     
  15. May 17, 2014 #55
    Destiny

    Destiny Guest

    Like I said, prior we can redo this battle, I really don't care, and I stuck to stats because it did control some more and the health bar should still be kept to keep it under control, and the health bar and some of the stats are used in the Origin anime , which I find better than the Ash amines to be honest, especially since Origins is taking from the manga which came before Ash.

    Next Angel could have easily performed critical hit himself or had his pokemon not take the critical hit. So that I see no fault in, but as I already stated before, we can redo it. If it was an issues before somebody could have messaged me , or rather Angel, should have messaged me. But nobody did so that one remained standing.

    Next for the length of time, I did not have an HP calculator on me, so a lot of it was based on memory of how I did it in the game, where as I've always managed that the match usually was done in thirds. But again as I stated a million times already if we need to redo the battle we can redo the battle.

    The battle though would still end up with Riolu as though they're evenly matched in some ratios, in others Riolu is just stronger and would take the medal, so though we can redo it, the results would be the same.

    Now Ijust repeated everything I said, and wished you people would of read wha I had previously read versus skipping over it and just wanting to argue it out more. The argument was over with my last post as it should be again.

    If Angel wants the battle redone, we can redo it, my only thing though is the battle must be quick and done before the end of the day and 4 posts should not expand the length of 3 days.

    Side note, DW you only get one egg move.
     
  16. May 17, 2014 #56
    Angel

    Angel Lion Heart Staff Member Administrator

    After reading everyone's post, I'd like to redo the battle if we can come to an agreement on how the battle will turn out. I suggest:

    • The battle is more anime orientated, therefore underdogs and Pokemon with type disadvantages are able to win also. Therefore we aren't limited to stats and game mechanics.
    • I and Destiny have 4 post each to conclude the battle.
    • The battle is decided by a vote based on those 8 posts. If the results are even i.e. 3 votes for Destiny and 3 votes for me, the battle is a draw. Anything else, the majority vote wins the battle.
    • The winner is allowed a 5th post where he/she can (power-play) and cause the opponent to faint.
    Is everyone happy with that or . . ?

    ----------------------------------

    @Destiny, say you and I post 8 posts in 3-5 hours. How does that help keep the RP from dying? That's more that everyone has to read in one go. I can understand why you think people are waiting on me, but I don't recall forcing everyone else outside (in the RP). More than one battle could be going on at the same time, which I thought was going to happen. With that being said, I'll speed up my posting, even though two posts per day, is exceptional for me.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2014
  17. May 17, 2014 #57
    King of Darkness

    King of Darkness What up Monica

    Not sure I quite understand stand your third bullet Angel? Other than that though, I can live with those rules. Although, are items still involved? And I mean like items that give you a sort of an edge in battles.

    Angel is absolutely right about not having to depend solely on that battle. Me Zac were communicating, a little character development never hurt.
     
  18. May 17, 2014 #58
    Angel

    Angel Lion Heart Staff Member Administrator

    We have a vote to determine who wins the battle.

    We have 8 roleplayers in this RP. Excluding my vote and Destiny's vote. We have a total of 6 votes in all. Basically, you guys determine who wins and who lose. Of course, this should only apply when battling each other. Just a suggestion though.
     
  19. May 17, 2014 #59
    King of Darkness

    King of Darkness What up Monica

    Ah, I see. Sure, sounds reasonable to me.
     
  20. May 17, 2014 #60
    NeRo

    NeRo Your Supreme Lord And Savior Staff Member Administrator

    Might i just chime in real quick to propose something?

    How about we just do away with the level stat altogether as far as moves and evolving in concerned. The game was more of a technical means of leveling and learning moves but in the Anime at least in MY time in watching i've never seen them reference " leveling" Pokemon just evolve under specific situations or when enough battles have been fought or experience has been gained maybe via training etc etc.

    Let's take ash's pokemon for example. His Metapod evolved into a Butterfree after jumping in front of a beedrill to save Ash. Now who's to say the metapod wasnt just at that specifc level and ready to evolve or did it evolve out of the desire to protect it's trainer.

    The same can go for Ash's Charmeleon. see here Charmeleon Evolves

    He evolved out of wanting to Beat up the pokemon bullying him and to save Ash from danger. Again who's to say charmeleon wasn't already at the level or was he doing it out of the specific situation. So i say do away with the leveling system all together. Use the leveling moves as a reference to what they can learn as time goes on. I'm sure we're all honest enough to not have our just earned pokemon doing things like Hyper Beam. So yea that's just my two cents.

    Also if the trainers ambition is strong enough the pokemon will find the resolve to win. Even against weaknesses i mean watch this video . It's apparent Charizard became a powerful pokemon he defeated Water types even at the disadvantage including a Blastoise.

    Ash Remembers Charizard
     
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