Ultimecia

Now, I love FF VIII, and have since the first time I played it. But, I have to admit that there are some pretty big plotholes, mostly related to Ultimecia.

For starters, who the hell is she? We know she's a sorceress from the future, but how far into the future? I would think that it wouldn't be such a far ways into the future, since she seems somewhat familiar with Edea, Adel, Odine (and Junction Machine Ellone), as well as Ellone herself. What was it that turned her evil? Is there a more personal reason for why she hates SeeD so much? And so on.

So, going along with that, she wants to compress time why, exactly? What on earth does she gain from this? A world where only she exists sounds pretty damn boring.

I've heard two theories that I think are interesting. The first, which I see has its own thread in this section (but it is dead) is that Ultimecia is really Rinoa, all grown up (and whacked out). I'm too lazy to write out the whole of this theory, but you could check out the other thread, or google it. I don't believe this theory, and I have heard a few places that S-E has confirmed that it is not true (though I've yet to see any actual proof of that). However, I like that it ties Ultimecia in with the rest of the characters and integrates her into the story more, in my opinion. But, I think that if Rinoa were in fact Ultimecia, we would have learned about it more in game.

The second is that Ultimecia (or at the least her final form) is really the Great Hyne, creator of mankind and source of power of the sorceresses. This I like, though I won't throw my support behind it 100%. In-game (though honestly, I can't remember this part), an old man in Balamb tells a story of Hyne as follows:

I think Ultimecia trying to compress time makes a lot more sense if she were in fact the Great Hyne (the stronger half). A typical sorceress may have a lot of powers, but she is still human. Humans would not be able to survive Ultimecia's time compression, but she would have. I think that would mean she is something a little more than typical.

Ultimecia wants to take power from all of the other sorceresses (her Scan details tell us this). If she were to do that, would she not be collecting the second half of Hyne that the god left behind for the people?

And after regaining his/her (Hyne is refered to as both, in different parts of the game) full power, I could see why the Great Hyne would want to wipe out the entirety of human kind and, with a clean slate, consider starting anew. Enter time compression.

---

So, discuss. Throw out any more theories you believe, or have heard of. Or, let me know if you think she's just some random character, with no deep meaning. And let me know if any of my information is incorrect, etc. Like I said, I must not have spoken to the residents in Balamb who gave the speech I quoted above, because I honestly can't remember ever hearing it. But I've seen it on more than one source, so I reckon the conversation actually occured.

 

In her speech to Galbadia wearing her Edea suit, Ultimecia goes on about how people have persecuted sorceresses for generations (ironically, probably because of her actions in the game's present).

And Edea does mention that sorceresses without knights usually become evil.

Honestly, I just find those shallow reasons for her actions. I'd prefer a more fleshed-out back story for Ultimecia. I don't like to think that's all the effort that could be put into the main villain.

Generally, what I have read is that the sorceress powers grant a certain longevity (perhaps immortality unless killed, or just a slower aging process), though honestly, I can't see or remember anything in the game that suggests this, except the fact that Edea looks much younger than Cid. During Rinoa's long lifetime, she loses Squall (old age, he is killed, etc). Without her knight, she slowly goes insane, forgets who she is (which tries to explain away why Ultimecia tried to kill Squall and Rinoa (and the rest) when she faced them as Edea, and why she would leave Rinoa out in space to die), and decides to compress time out of her bitterness and anger, which is all she can remember.

I find it interesting to think that it is actually Rinoa you are fighting against the whole game, and Rinoa does ask Squall to promise to kill her if she ever turns evil, but like I mentioned in the first post, I think that would have been something so major to the story that Square would have had to discuss it more openly in the game.

 

Whose powers will reach whom? Rinoa's powers will reach to Ultimecia? Well, yeah, because Ultimecia is from the future. You're not time traveling back in time to kill a past Ultimecia. I'm confused as to how this disputes the theory. It would be possible (I'd think likely) that Rinoa would not know that Ultimecia was her future self.

R=U does not rely on sorceresses being immortal. It does usually concern Rinoa outliving Squall by many, many years, however.

What does this have to do with R=U?

This seems to play into the R=U theory, rather than otherwise. Rinoa fought against Ultimecia, along with members of SeeD. So, if Ultimecia could look back on that and remember herself, however vaguely, as Rinoa fighting a sorceress that resembles herself, she'd know that she was fated to die at the hands of SeeD, and would try to change that future if possible, by compressing time.

What crimes were Ultimecia unable to commit? I'm not understanding this passage here. My understanding of the game is that the events happen in one huge time loop. Squall and the others don't really defeat Ultimecia, because she will still gain power, still destroy her present, still search for Ellone in the past, still attempt to compress time. The only way to break the cycle would be to find Ultimecia before she gained her powers (or while she was still "good" and hadn't decided to start her campaign to destroy the world) and kill her, or kill Odine before he completes the machine. Then, she wouldn't have been able to go back in time and muck things up. So, everything that we see Ultimecia do in the game, she will continue to do, unless the time loop is broken. Maybe I'm misreading your post.

Not really. It is never said how far into the future Ultimecia hails from. Frankly, if I were a regular human living through the events of FFVIII, I'd be pretty angry with sorceresses too. The persecution had already started to an extent with Adel, and would have grown even more after Ultimecia took over Galbadia and killed the president, then compressed time. Rinoa even caught some of it in the present, with Esthar wanting to seal her away. If Rinoa lived for a long period of time, she would live through that growing hatred and prejudice. And if her memories did begin to fade (from junctioning a GF, such as Griever?), she would forget about when people were kind to her, and only remember the way she is treated as the sorceress Ultimecia, and think it had always been that way.

[/rambling]

 

Yes, that is what it basically says when you scan him. Something along the lines of "In Squall's mind, the most powerful GF". I suppose Ultimecia simply plucked the idea from his mind to scare him. However, R=U theory, like you said, usually uses that as an example, so I threw it out there.

Really, it doesn't matter which GF Rinoa junctioned. Any would have made her slowly lose her memories. Or so the "GF critics" would argue.

 

That's so lame, though. I prefer to come up with elaborate theories that probably aren't true, instead.

And you know this how, exactly? I never saw a copy of Ultimecia's driver license. She looks like a young woman, but she could be much older. Look at Edea. She looks barely older than Squall and the rest of the kids at the end of the game, and we know she's at least a good 20 years older than them. The idea is that sorceress powers lengthen a person's life span. If that were true, then yes, Rinoa could potentially outlive Squall by quite a while.

If you said exactly what you meant when you post, there wouldn't be a misunderstanding.

Yes, the part about Ultimecia dying by the hands of a SeeD could have been a prophecy, or just common sense, since she knew she pissed them off. And yes, when a sorceress dies, she passes on her powers. Can you prove to me that Rinoa died and passed hers on to someone, who passed hers on to someone, etc, to reach Ultimecia? There's just as much proof for the idea that Rinoa is Ultimecia.

This makes no sense, and I can't figure out what point you're trying to make. Ultimecia did commit crimes in Squall's time. She killed President Deling, she took over Galbadia, Galbadia Garden, and attacked Balamb and Trabia Garden. In a Rinoa suit, she released Adel from her prison, and so on. Unless you're saying that because Rinoa was a good person in the present, she couldn't possibly be Ultimecia in the future, since Ultimecia is evil? That's bullshit. People change.

Rinoa doesn't need to be an expert in GFs to junction one, as you can tell from the game, when she junctions one. Squall and the others would be there for her, UNLESS THEY DIED, which is what the R=U theory suggests. Rinoa is left behind without a knight to protect her, slowly loses her mind and becomes evil, and then forgets most of her past because of the GF.

Who has said anything about Ultimecia killing Odine? I think he was long dead by the time Ultimecia used Junction Machine Ellone to muck up the past.

And I'm sure the people just love Galbadians, who teamed with the sorceress to help destroy the world. They are the ones that helped Edea/Ultimecia gain power in the present. And after "Edea"'s reign of terror, Adel's tyranncy, and Ultimecia's time compression, I think plenty of people would agree that sorceresses should be locked away or killed. Rinoa's father and her lovable nature wouldn't save her. We could see that in game with Esthar wanting to seal Rinoa away, before she'd even really had a chance to use her powers.

What now?

 

Learn how to use quote tags right.

And you've yet to offer any that is convincing.

Edea did not choose to give away her powers. It happened and she was completely unaware. She went to Odine to have him do something to seal her powers so that Ultimecia couldn't possess her again, and he told her that she was no longer a sorceress. So we've seen no sorceresses who have willingly given up their powers while they were alive. And we do know that sorceresses must pass on their powers before they can rest in peace. I would wager that most sorceresses stay that way until they are ready to die. If Rinoa could have given up her powers any time she wanted, why the hell didn't she do that after she returned from space? She obviously had no desire to be a sorceress. The fact that she didn't shows that she can't just pick and choose. The powers were given to her for a reason. And anyway, it really doesn't matter whether Rinoa was on death's door when she passed on her powers or not. You still have no more proof than I do that Rinoa did do so, and didn't grow to become Ultimecia herself.

No. You clearly didn't read what I said. Maybe before you decide to debate, you should become a bit more familiar with what the other side is saying. What I said was that the events of FFVIII are trapped in a time loop. The only way to stop that time loop, to stop Ultimecia from ever traveling back to the past, from destroying her present, or starting time compression would be to either 1) Kill Ultimecia before she gained her sorceress powers (or in the case that she may be Rinoa, kill her before she turns evil, or 2) Kill Odine before he completes Junction Machine Ellone. I said nothing about Ultimecia killing him. Learn to read, please.

If Ultimecia were indeed Rinoa, then yes, she would be able to remember what she witnessed as a young woman, at least until her memories were eroded by the GF. So, she would be able to remember the terrible things the sorceress did, that as a young woman she had fought against. And these things would be recorded in history. Even if she were not Rinoa, or anyone else alive in Squall's present, she would still be able to research about the time a sorceress took over Galbadia, launched missiles at two gardens and destroyed one of them, and tried to compress time. She might not remember it, and couldn't if she wasn't alive in Squall's present, but if she were interested in sorceress history (which I think she would be when she became one, and especially if sorceresses at that time were horribly mistreated), I don't think it would be too difficult for her to start to think 'maybe the sorceress from the future who did all this back then was me.' Or, if she couldn't make that leap, "Hey, this chick had a smart plan. I should try that."

Maybe if the world were just made up of the few people you can run around and talk to in the few cities located on the world map, Rinoa would be safe. But this is a whole world. You think every person in the entire world would be familiar with Rinoa and sympathetic to her cause? How about the loved ones of people killed during the Sorceress War? Think they'd love to accept another sorceress? How about the people of Garden, who are TRAINED TO KILL SORCERESSES? Think they'd be okay with letting her do whatever she wanted, without monitoring her at all? Or how about all of the people affected by the time compression? Think they'd just forgive and forget? You keep saying yourself that sorceresses become persecuted. We've already seen that Esthar wasn't willing to even give Rinoa the chance to be a good sorceress before sealing her away forever. Why would Rinoa be any more accepted, because she's the daughter of a top general many people probably have good reason to hate, and a singer who had one hit song before getting killed in a car accident? We've seen that many people knew and loved Edea, including her own husband, but mercenaries were still sent to assassinate her when it seemed she was going evil and needed to be stopped.

You have no proof that Squall took over Balamb Garden, or that he would have the authority to order people from killing Rinoa. SeeDs exist to defeat sorceresses. If Rinoa were to start behaving in an alarming way and Squall tried to keep people from killing her, I think there'd be a revolt, a la the Garden Master NORG vs Cid, with people wanting to do their jobs versus those wanting to protect a friend.

And anyways, as I think I said in my last post, the idea behind R=U is that Squall and the rest of Rinoa's friends are DEAD before Rinoa starts acting in an Ultimecia fashion. So Squall wouldn't be around to protect her from SeeD, or the rest of the populace.

 

Yes, that too. If Rinoa were to turn evil, I think Squall would be one of the few who could possibly stop her before it was too late.

Yes, you mentioned that in your first post. ^_^

Really, Ultimecia wanting to compress time makes no sense to me, if you look at her as just a random baddie out to take over. I suppose she could always just be insane, but it seems to me like she gets no real benefit from a compressed world. If she is the only one who can exist, well, how lonely and boring would that be? At least, if you want to take over the world, keep the humans around as your slaves.

So, that's why I like the idea of Ultimecia being Rinoa, or being the Great Hyne. I think both of those two characters (assuming Squall dies before Rinoa), have valid reasons for wanting to compress time- wanting to see Squall, or wanting to erase mankind and possibly start again, respectfully.

 

^Eh, but really. Wouldn't an egomaniac need someone around to brag to about how completely awesome she is in every respect?

Ultimecia is just a pretty poorly written character. v_v

 

^Are you saying VIII needs a sequel? No, no, no. VIII had enough closure, and I live in fear of some horrible VIII-2 sequel.

What does Laguna know? He's not exactly a genius, here.

I skimmed through the article you linked to (and actually, I think I have read through it in the past). What I think sums up the R=U theory is that there really isn't enough information in the game to decisively say "Yes, Ultimecia is really Rinoa" or not. I think the R=U theory requires one to make some assumptions in order for it to make sense, (such as, for instance, that sorceresses live longer than regular humans), and that there really isn't enough proof that any of those assumptions you have to make are valid. But at the same time, there isn't really anything that decisively proves those assumptions false, that I can recall. R=U's a weak argument, but I think the argument could still be made.

This sounds as if you've been hunkered down in a lab or library with your nose stuck in some books incessantly.

Well, since the R=U discussion is over, for now, what about the idea of Ultimecia being the Great Hyne I mentioned in my first post? Honestly, I refuse to admit that Ultimecia is just poor writing, with no backstory.

 

Good point. Hmm. I wish I could remember where I saw this idea explained, because it had somewhat made sense to me when I read it. >_<

What if the stronger half of Hyne were influencing/possessing Ultimecia, then? Ultimecia still believes herself to be in control, but it is actually Hyne who wants her to compress time (so that s/he could start the world anew)? I guess really, you'd expect that to be more obvious in the game.

Time compression is what gets me. I can think of no good reason why a random person would want to do that. I can see why Rinoa in the future could possibly want to do it. And I can see why a god annoyed with humanity would want to do it. Ultimecia, a random girl who becomes the last sorceress, not so much. She already should have every past sorceresses' powers, as you said, since Rinoa is the only living sorceress after Adel dies, so, she'd only be able to pass it on to one sorceress at a time, right? So why would Ultimecia need to compress time in order to absorb sorceress powers? And what other benefit is there for her?