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FFVIII Alternate Plot Interpretation

Discussion in 'Final Fantasy VIII' started by Desert Warrior, Feb 14, 2011.

  1. Feb 14, 2011 #1
    Desert Warrior

    Desert Warrior Well-Known Member

    To be honest, I have Toph in mind as I make this thread. Simply because she's mentioned multiple times about plot holes and whatnot. Anyways, while looking up random guesses about the game, I happened upon this site: An interesting interpretation. Maybe if one of you reading this thread couldn't make sense of the plot, this may give reasons as to what may have happened.

    Personally, I think it is a cool idea of how it works, and would be the most magnificently overall theme to ever be subtly put in a game. But at the same time, I don't believe that's how it actually happened. Probably because of multiple reasons. One is that my brother would be kind of right (Different way, but still right about an idea in the end). Another is that it is hard to tell if the evidence is coincidental or brilliantly done.
     
  2. Feb 14, 2011 #2
    EtherealSummoner

    EtherealSummoner Lamentations 3:22-26

    Um... when Edea did that ice strike, it actually pierced his right shoulder, not his right chest. I doubt that Squall would die from an attack that hits the shoulder and to me, magic is more mental than physical. Plus, we did not see Squall bleeding from Edea's attack. This should cross out the idea that Squall died in Disc one and dreamt the rest of the way from Disc 2 onwards.
     
  3. Feb 15, 2011 #3
    Desert Warrior

    Desert Warrior Well-Known Member

    Did I (Or anybody else for that matter) say this is how it actually went? NO. This is all speculation and wild mass guessing. And if you wanna be more specific, the ice shard (Which seems to be at least half a foot in diameter) would have put a nice big hole in Squall's right lung and potentially pierced his left. But of course, the pain of a 4 foot long block of ice going through Squall's body was all in his head. There was absolutely no physical pain whatsoever.

    FFVIII has showed magic as being much more physical than anything mental. The force of Edea's ice attack pushed Squall off the float. In the opening video you can see Squall trying to breathe after a fireball just exploded in his face (Which, if you knew anything about fire, you'd understand that there would be no oxygen around him for a brief moment, hence his trying to breathe).

    And somehow it matters that there was no blood with the attack? He has a fricken 4 foot long block of ice sticking out of him. I wouldn't be too worried about blood either.
     
  4. Feb 15, 2011 #4
    EtherealSummoner

    EtherealSummoner Lamentations 3:22-26

    No duh Desert. I know that this is speculation. I am putting in my own interpretation and guesses and this theory actually irritates me and contradicts as to what I think. If you go back and watch that video and pause with him about to fall, you would see that her attack is in his shoulders. Sorceress Edea's attack may have been more mental than physical during that time. Who knows?

    Not only that, if Squall was dreaming, then would that contradict the part that him, Selphie and Zell fell on the train to Laguna's past consciousness through Ellone? To me, Squall should not be able to experience the past if he is dead and I don't think that Ellone can work through dead people.

    The part of the love triangle between Squall, Rinoa and Seifer: not all that interesting.
     
  5. Feb 15, 2011 #5
    Kitty

    Kitty I Survived The BG Massacre Staff Member Administrator

    We touched on this idea very briefly in one of the threads I'd made a while back about the plot holes.

    I like this theory as much as I like the R=U or Ultimecia= The Great Hyne theories, because it takes a story chock full of plot holes and makes it make sense. For one, I always thought it was kind of weird the way Squall's wound just disappears like nothing happened and no one ever mentioned it again, as I'm quoting below.

    I could respond to all the points the article made, but I'd basically just be saying "I agree." I think the conclusions the author made are logical based on the facts of the game. However, I do not think this theory is true. I think there would have been something at the end to spell it out for us all. I know the article mentions Vanilla Sky, and that FFVIII not spelling it out for us is better, but I still think S-E would have done so. Personally, I've come to the conclusion that the story is just not as well put together as I once thought it was. I think the plot holes were unintentional, that S-E just got lazy or screwed up.

    If Squall is dead (or dying) and the rest of the game is just a figment of his imagination, then the real Ellone isn't sending him back to experience the past. Squall is hallucinating about an unreal version of Ellone sending him to a past he also is imagining. None of this is really happening in the real FFVIII world.

    That's the point. Speculation. XD

    I agree with DW here- the attack didn't brush harmlessly off his shoulder, it pierced his body and I would expect it to have at least pierced the lung on the side it went through (I guess the right, I can't remember). I'd imagine there'd be internal bleeding and who knows what else could have been damaged. I think it is possible that if a real person were attacked in such a way, he could die from those injuries.

    There was no blood when Aerith died, either. Yet I don't think anyone is denying that she had a big ass sword rammed through her, killing her. FF doesn't really do the whole gore thing. So, the presence of blood is irrelevant.

    Hee, I love FF talk. We need more of it. ^_^
     
  6. Feb 15, 2011 #6
    EtherealSummoner

    EtherealSummoner Lamentations 3:22-26

    Meh. Squall had blood gushing out from fighting Seifer so that is why I had included blood in this one since it is gore-related in FFVIII for a small amount.

    As for the Ice Strike, I am seeing this from a different perspective. I really don't know what both of you are seeing so whenever I go back and check, I still see the attack stuck in his shoulders. (Stuck, in and pierced are still in my mind with this as the same.) How in the world that I only see him pierced in the shoulders and the two of you see him pierced in the chest, I do not know.

    Not only that, we cannot assume that he is dreaming an unreal Ellone. All of us saw her in the very beginning of the game so saying that he dreamt a fake is crossed out.

    As for Edea, we should still know that Edea is under control of Ultimecia. Ultimecia cannot interrogate Quistis because she don't know anything about Quistis. It would most likely be Squall since she learned from Seifer that the two of them tend to have a rival and that since she learned that Squall just became a SeeD cadet and became a leader of a group, that she should, through Edea, choose Squall, without knowing that letting him live will repeat the cycle.

    As for the healing, all of you forgot one thing: Moombas. They worked at the prison and I doubt that Ultimecia can heal (Otherwise, it would have been a harder boss battle for Edea and herself.). They had the Moombas to heal Squall and then put him in chains.

    Yep. I just want to shut down this theory real hard. XD That's just me. -____- And this picture is just freaking annoying, scary and disturbing. I don't even remember seeing this at all in the game.

    [​IMG]
     
  7. Feb 16, 2011 #7
    Desert Warrior

    Desert Warrior Well-Known Member

    I was gonna say that, but it looks like you beat me to the punch. But I may still have to say something about it.

    I also had recently put up a thread in FFXII that had some really interesting ideas. Some of them could change your opinion on the game.

    They did that to show Squall getting his scar. It is the only time (That I'm aware of) that you actually see blood in an FF game.

    Let's say that the ice pierced his shoulder. It still would've put a nice-sized hole in his right lung.

    Him seeing her in the beginning means nothing. For the sake of argument, believe that this whole 'Squall died in disk 1' thing is true. He saw Ellone in the beginning when he was in the hospital wing. He doesn't see her any other time in disk 1. So as he's dying and imagining the events from disk 2 on, his subconscious takes Ellone and gives her more importance in his life than what she actually had.

    But, since you like bringing up Ellone as evidence against this theory, the only thing in disk 1 that would stop this theory from being true is Squall's dream of Laguna on the train. Unless of course that was hugely coincidental.

    But why pick Squall? At the time, he didn't really have any importance. He wasn't the leader of SeeD. He was just one of the newest members. There really was no reason to interrogate him, with the only exception being that he's the one who attacked Edea.

    You mean the Moombas that don't appear until disk 2? Again, they could all be part of Squall's imagination. And they never explain how Squall was healed, so saying the Moombas healed him could be as true as saying Ultimecia herself healed him.

    That is a very scary picture. But it does happen in the ending video, for a split second. I barely noticed it, and the only reason I noticed it is because I saw the picture beforehand.
     
  8. Feb 16, 2011 #8
    EtherealSummoner

    EtherealSummoner Lamentations 3:22-26

    Him seeing Ellone does mean something. Ellone said in the beginning, "We meet again.". Cannot deny that. Also, Ellone already knew who Squall and Quistis was so trying to cross her out and call her a fake from Disc 2 onward is irrelevant to me. Plus, if it wasn't Moobas, then it could have been a Galbadia officer or nurse someone else who could have cured Squall.

    As for choosing Squall, I believe that I stated some of my answers in my last post. Even so:

    1. Connection between Seifer and Squall. Seifer and Squall was under Edea's and Cid's care. Since Cid knows Squall and his friends as he elected them, Seifer and Ultimecia through the shell may have assumed that Cid may have only tell Squall something.

    2. Since Ultimecia learned through Edea that Squall always called for Ellone when he was little, she went after him.

    Tell you the rest later. Preparing for school.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2011
  9. Feb 16, 2011 #9
    Desert Warrior

    Desert Warrior Well-Known Member

    You do understand that your entire argument is based off of all the events of FFVIII actually happening, and not some pre-death dream, right? So every ounce of evidence you bring up is kinda irrelevant in arguing against this theory simply because you aren't giving any proper evidence that disproves it.
     
  10. Feb 16, 2011 #10
    EtherealSummoner

    EtherealSummoner Lamentations 3:22-26

    Do I really have to go and bring up a link in order to prove my point? I am basing off of my own understanding from Disc 1 and as to why I still don't think that Disc 2 onward is a dream. I am looking at both sides and bringing up answers from Disc one that contradicts the theory. The theory may be possible, yes, but every ounce of evidence that I bring up from Disc 1 is enough to try and come with a conclusion on this so me bringing up everything on Disc 1 shouldn't be irrelevant. If I brought up something from Disc 3 or 4, forgive me. Wasn't trying to since I went way ahead of myself. Forget about the first two answers about Ultimecia in my last post since I was thinking on Disc 3.

    Anyways, since we are thinking about this theory, I will focus more on Disc 1 and tell you more as to why this theory irritates me.

    1. Two very important events. One is Squall, Selphie and Zell on the train with their first past experience with Laguna and again as Squall, Selphie and Quistis experience Laguna and his gang somewhere in an unknown area near Esthar (Which is really the Lunar Crystal.) Now if it was just with the train, it could have been a coincidence but if you have Quistis experience it along the way, then you definitely cannot call it a coincidence. You would know that you cannot call those dreams.

    2. (Be right back. have bible class. You can answer to 1 if you want.)
     
  11. Feb 16, 2011 #11
    Desert Warrior

    Desert Warrior Well-Known Member

    Which is why I said this:

    Although I will admit that I forgot when the second Laguna dream came up.
     
  12. Feb 16, 2011 #12
    Kitty

    Kitty I Survived The BG Massacre Staff Member Administrator

    It didn't pierce right in the middle of his chest, no, but it also didn't just brush over the top of his shoulder. It went straight through his body and out the other side. That is going to cause damage no matter where in the body it hits. Even if it somehow missed his lung or any other organ, he still could have bled to death. Or gone into shock, or some such. >_<

    I know DW already addressed this, but the Ellone we see in the beginning of the game is the actual Ellone. After disc one, as far as this theory goes, any time we see Ellone again, she is a complete figment of Squall's imagination. But seriously, have you never had a dream about someone you know in real life? Same thing here, except in Squall's case it's a hallucination as he's dying. This whole theory is based on assumptions, just as the traditional interpretation of the game is. You can find evidence either way, depending on which you're looking for.

    Bullshit. Ultimecia could just have easily learned from Seifer that Quistis, a member of the group trying to kick their ass, was a full-fledged SeeD and an instructor. Surely Seifer would have been just as eager to bitch about her, since she didn't exactly have a lot of faith in him or stand up for him. If Ultimecia's goal is to learn more about SeeD, it's asinine for her to pick the new recruit instead of the veteran to torture for info. And I'd wager Quistis would have broke first, too, since Squall's such a stubborn pain in the ass.

    If she could learn such a random unimportant fact from Edea about Squall, why couldn't she learn from her what SeeD was all about? Or tons of other stuff that would have made taking over the world simpler?

    DW got here before me again, but I'm gonna comment anyway. As he said, the moombas never appear until disc 2, after Squall is already dying and dreaming, according to the theory.

    The problem is, you're trying so hard to shut the theory down, yet most of the points you're making are irrelevant. Like the moombas. The theory relies on the idea that they are made up because they don't appear in disc one. Unless you could show us that they do appear, mentioning them doesn't help prove your point. And yeah, that picture is creepy. I never noticed it until I saw this website a while back, then the last time I played VIII I picked up on it. That whole sequence is kind of creepy, though.

    Completely irrelevant, but I believe they showed Kuja with a nosebleed in FFIX. Then he made some sort of comment about how Zidane et.al made him bleed his own blood. Or something like that. But yeah, realistic bloodshed is not common in FF games. That I've noticed, anyhow.

    I'm also really missing the point about the dream sequences. Why are these evidence to the contrary? For some reason I'm really lost. >_<
     
  13. Feb 16, 2011 #13
    Desert Warrior

    Desert Warrior Well-Known Member

    I actually had a dream with Hope (The member here, not the FFXIII character), even though I've never met her in person.

    The reason I pointed it out is because on the train to Timber was the first dream with Laguna. And based on Squall's conversatin with Zell and Selphie afterwards, they all had the same dream (That, or Squall just assumes they had the same dream). Which would mean that Ellone did that dream thing just like every other time in the game. And if Ellone was just some random girl that Squall's mind made more important, then she wouldn't have been able to give him that dream.
     
  14. Feb 16, 2011 #14
    EtherealSummoner

    EtherealSummoner Lamentations 3:22-26

    At least you made sense. I know that it was straight out on the other side too but the two of you kept on talking about chests. I can agree with both of you on that now because it is possible for him to die right there on the spot :)D Unless they had their "Behind the Scenes" footage of Seifer healing him just so he can wrestle with him once more.). Now I can stop worrying on that subject.

    -__- I would bring up videos to back up my what I am saying but they are in-game and the videos are long so I won't bother doing that. I just telling both of you what I remembered as evidence. Both of you just have to replay the game to see what I am talking about. Just try to persuade me that my assumptions may be mistaken since I am the one who is opposed to this idea. This is a fun argument after all and I am loving it. XD

    With Ellone, well, Squall lost all of his memories so he... cannot find another word "technically" remember that the woman is actually Ellone. *Forgot what I was about to say 15 minutes later after eating dinner*

    As for Ultimecia through Edea, meh. I don't think she had Edea's memories. .... ... Wait a minute. Let us not go into that part. I think that it should be a different topic. Forget that.

    And my biggest question for this thread? What if Squall did not die?! What if Seifer knocked him out real good during their practice battle, dream all of it during the very beginning of the FMV and then he woke up and re-experienced it with no memory of actually dreaming it?
     
  15. Feb 16, 2011 #15
    Kitty

    Kitty I Survived The BG Massacre Staff Member Administrator

    But she still could have been a girl with that power, and she even still could have been his "Sis" in the real world. I don't necessarily think that everything that happened in Squall's dream had no basis in fact. Perhaps Ellone had a plan that got derailed in the real world when Squall was fatally injured and his subconscious just carried on with it and embellished on it. Or there could have been some other reason why all three shared a similar dream (don't ask me what, maybe they were all high or something) and later on Squall just gave Ellone that power as he imagined the rest of the story to make things more interesting.

    I don't know, I'm probably just rambling. I just don't see this as a deal-breaker for the theory, though like I mentioned before, I really think this is all just evidence of S-E's lousy writing.
    I went back and watched the video of this scene. In my opinion, it does hit him in the chest. Not smack dab in the middle of the chest, but when you see Squall fall over backwards, it looks far enough down from the tops of his shoulders to definitely hit a lung or something.

    And you could probably find some evidence for that, too. Most theories work that way. Personally, I think with the retarded way the story starts to go after disc one, the theory presented in the article is more likely than this, but like I said before, I don't really believe any of them. It would be a comfort to know that something like this "Squall's dead" is true though, so I could believe this is a well-written, deep story.
     

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