Abortion

A topic which usually turns heated, but I know my fellow KHPers are lovely and rational and would never get ugly with each other over their beliefs.

This is on my mind because the completely asinine governor of my state (been in office two months, and already a complete muck-up, but that's not the point right now), has very recently signed into law a bill requiring all women wanting an abortion to have a face-to-face consultation with a healthcare provider. There's also a law (and I can't quite tell if this too was passed, or if it's on the way, the articles have been unclear) requiring any women wanting an abortion to be forced to have a transvaginal ultrasound, whether the women's doctor deems this medically necessary or not. And I am just so unbelievably pissed off that a bunch of old white male politicians in Frankfort think they know better about what's in my best interest than I or my doctor do. Just unbelievably pissed. And I want to talk about it.

So, where do you stand on this issue (not specifically my state's crisis, but in general)? Pro-life, pro-choice, don't care? Other?

As you can tell from my angry ranting, I am 1000% pro-choice. That doesn't necessarily mean I am pro-abortion, as personally, I don't think I would ever do it for various reasons I can get into if someone cares, but I absolutely believe that the decision about a woman's health should be made by herself, her family (if applicable), and her doctor. The government has no right getting involved in this way.

And in line with that, a trolling KY Representative, Mary Lou Marzian, a woman after my own heart, has introduced legislation requiring men seeking Viagra or another erectile dysfunction drug to have two office visits with a health care practitioner before being given a prescription, as well as requiring a signed and dated letter of approval from his spouse and to “make a sworn statement with his hand on a Bible that he will only use a prescription for a drug for erectile dysfunction when having sexual relations with his current spouse.” Source / Another Source. This is a real bill, though not expected to pass (of course), and I'm sure most of these hypocritical politicians will completely miss the point, but it sure is nice to see the government meddle with men's reproductive health for a change.

As far as the pro-life arguments go, it always seems to me that the people supporting pro-life are really just pro-birth. Republicans especially don't seem to give a damn about all the things a baby needs to thrive after he is born (ie. strong early childhood education, affordable healthcare, plenty of food, shelter, etc), given the way they are constantly slashing programs designed to give these things. It seems awful to me to force a baby into the world, only for him or her to be neglected, unwanted, or not properly provided for.

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Whew, I feel better. Anyone like to share their thoughts?

 

It's forced if the mother and the father don't even want to be giving birth to the kid in the first place, but have to because the government puts so many hoops for them to jump through that they have their choice taken away.

Oh yeah, that's a great life for a child. Here, let's send you home with the parents who never wanted you, see how well they take care of you for the next 18+ years.

And before someone brings up adoption, yeah it's great. I was adopted myself, as I've mentioned on this forum in the past, as well one of my sisters. But families are usually looking for a very specific type of baby *coughwhiteorinternationalcough*, and it's also a very long, expensive process that often ends in disappointment. I don't think there are as many people out there fighting to adopt as some people claim, and I also think they tend to be fighting over the same type babies, leaving the others to be sent into the system. Of course, if the protesters holding signs and berating people at Planned Parenthood clinics instead acted sane and held up signs offering to adopt these babies, maybe that would change some minds. As it is, there's something like 100,000 children in the US in foster care waiting to be adopted. But yeah, let's add to that number.

Birth control's not 100% effective. You could be doing everything right and still end up pregnant. According to this report, about half of women seeking an abortion were using a form of birth control. Punishment for daring to have sex at all? There's also this stereotype that all abortion-seekers are young, dumb teenagers or college coeds who were stupid and don't want any child, but the reality is that a lot of the women seeking abortions are already mothers (61% as of this article) and want to be able to provide the best for the family that they already have.

One of the reports I linked to discusses this, and says that women do not use abortion as just another form of birth control. There actually are these substantial reasons.

Probably because you don't have to make that choice at all.

I frankly don't understand the idea that someone else thinks they can make a better decision about a person's life and health than the person it affects and her team of health practitioners. It's the same bullshit health insurance companies do when they interfere with doctor's orders and refuse to cover services doctors insist are medically necessary. And there are a lot of medical reasons why a woman would not want to stay pregnant, some of which can be permanent and/or life-threatening. Then there's the problem of things like unpaid maternity leave, wage inequality, the actual cost of raising a child (child care's not cheap), and so on, which makes it too hard on a lot of families. Especially if the father chooses to skip town when he finds out a baby's coming and not pay any child support. But that's cool.

Also, this is cool. I miss debates. Now where's Mike?

 

I don't care one bit about a person's beliefs about this for themselves. Hell, I even said that I don't think I would ever have one for myself. My problem is that the government has no business getting themselves involved in the way that it does. It's always these rich white men, passing laws based on their religion, though they try to hide it by pretending that they're looking out for women.

Newsflash, but women understand what they are agreeing to when they go in for an abortion. We understand the implications, and we can make that choice for ourselves without the government thinking we're incapable of understanding, and need them to hold our hand, and insist we get this counseling one day, some more counseling another day, an ultrasound wand stuck up some place it doesn't need to be without a valid medical reason because these same rich white assholes think we need to see the nothing on the ultrasound screen and take even more time to (re)consider our actions.

Unless Roe vs Wade is overturned, abortion is legal whether people like it or not. Yet many states have managed to get away with passing laws that make it damn near impossible for women (especially poor women) to get one when they need one. And that's bullshit. If you don't want to have one, don't. No one's forcing anyone to. But don't get in the way of another woman's legal right to have one if she wants one.

I feel like I would be a lot more sympathetic to the pro-life side if they showed that they really were pro-life for everyone, at any age. Like I mentioned, rather than harassing women and workers at clinics, if they were offering to actually adopt unwanted children, or conservatives in government were offering programs that would actually help these mothers (or, I don't know, how about some decent sex ed), the abortion rate would probably go down some on its own. Instead, in my own state for example, the government just voted to refuse to raise payments for fostering children (which have been the same for over 12 years), and the budget (which, granted, hasn't yet passed) is all set to slash education, child care assistance, not to mention the rape the governor is doing to Kentucky's health care system. Conservatives turn up their noses when women with children apply for help, and say shit like they shouldn't have had so many kids if they can't afford to take care of them, all while giving them no options to do otherwise, with crappy access to birth control and shaming women about abortions. The blame seems to be shoved all onto the women in these situations, with no one caring about the men who helped get them into the mess in the first place. Women are told that they should have kept their legs closed, but then the same men bully them for not putting out when they do that. Or that's how I feel, anyhow.

Thank you to everyone who has taken part in this thread. I know none of you agree with me, but it still has made me feel a lot better talking about it. I was feeling extremely angry about this the other day when I made the thread.

 

Let me clarify that I'm not angry at anyone posting in this thread. Y'all are absolutely entitled to your own opinions on things, just as I am, and I don't mind a good debate when people are respectable, which I feel you all have been so far. My state government is just awful, lol. But then again, KY is probably one of the most ignorant voter states in the country, so I don't know why I expect anything else. Just needed a good rant about it. XD

In answer to your question, I'm not sure what else I can say that I haven't yet, but I'm open to attempt debating some more if anyone wants to. In some respects, I feel this topic is pointless. I don't think I've ever heard of a single person who've actually changed their views from pro-choice to pro-life, or vice versa.

 

It is a right, upheld by the US Supreme Court by Roe v. Wade. Don't agree with it? That's your problem. No one said you have to have an abortion, did they? No one's trying to tie women down and force them to have an abortion against their will.

You don't know these women's lives, and frankly, it doesn't seem like people on the pro-life side usually want to. There are lots of reasons why a woman might not want to have a baby, but the fact is, women shouldn't need to defend their choice. Abortion is legal.

Sometimes for that reason, but also because yes, birth control is not 100% effective, even when used properly. Hence why there are warnings to that effect about condoms and birth control. And of course, when people aren't taught proper sex ed, it's no wonder that some would screw up using contraceptives.

Funny how men are always so quick to judge women who feel that they don't have the capabilities to care for a child, when so many men are able to get out of the situation when they find out that they got a woman pregnant, avoid all responsibilities, and refuse to pay any child support or have anything else to do with the child they helped to create. Because it does take two, despite the fact that your arguments are reading like you're entirely blaming the women for this. I live in a low income area with a lot of single mothers, and I've seen for myself how difficult they find it to get a dime in child support from any of the sperm donors they've been involved with. But I suppose that's the woman's fault for having sex without being married, right? Despite the fact that the men are doing the same thing; they can just walk away from their mistake without looking back, and women aren't able to avoid the consequences. I wish this puritanical attitude towards sex would disappear, but I see it's still alive and well in the younger generations.

Who says a child would be born anyway? Something like 10-25% of known pregnancies result in a miscarriage. Birth defects or other health complications could occur that would not result in a live birth. It's not like women wait until they've been pregnant for eight months and the fetus would survive out of the womb before up and deciding on having an abortion. In any case, I don't think that every life is worth living. Was Bella Bond's life worth living, or would it have been a mercy if her mother had chosen to abort her? According to this USA Today article quoting FBI homicide data, an average of 450 children are killed by a parent each year, infants being almost a third of all deaths. That's just killed, it doesn't include children abused and neglected and left alive. But those babies were born, and that's what counts.

I think that the majority of parents who have children who did not originally want them do end up loving their children once they are born. But not all of them. And we have laws that protect our ability to make this choice for good reason.

Yeah, this is pointless, and in general, the more I read, the quicker I lose respect for the intelligence of others. I'm sure that goes both ways.

Even taking into account the differing attitudes towards abortion, I still can't believe people would advocate giving up their health rights to the interference of the government. Does anyone actually think a bunch of politicians know better than doctors? Honestly. I also always find it funny how often the same people who advocate for laws restricting abortions tend to favor less restrictions on guns, and are pro-death penalty. It's fascinating.