Cloud-Sephiroth Relation (POTENTIAL SPOILERS)

So I've seen this one brought up somewhere else before, and have been jostling it around my own head as well for a little while. I figured, why not see what someone around here thinks of it. I apologize if the presentation is a bit scatterbrained; I don't often theorize on video games. Thus, without wait:

Spoiler

My train of thought in a nutshell: Cloud, after an attempted dive into Darkness, for whatever reason, lost his Heart, rendering him a Nobody, and spawning Sephiroth as his Heartless counterpart.

There seems to be some sufficient evidence that Sephiroth could be, somehow, a Heartless spawned by Cloud attempting to delve into the powers of Darkness. Most of this evidence is outlined verbally. Particularly through KHII, in which both Cloud and Sephiroth reference Sephiroth's ties to Cloud's Darkness, and Cloud's tracking of Sephiroth being about finding his Light.

However, I feel that the strongest lines to back such a theory were seen in the first Kingdom Hearts game:

Admittedly, the latter lines of the quote could be argued as a reference to his employment with Hades as having been a result of diving into the Darkness, and thus being willing to deal with the quintessential devil simply to find an adversary; that interpretation that could work, given the order in which the lines are arranged. But if we can tie those lines to the statements made by both Cloud and Sephiroth in the the second game, it seems, at least from my perspective) like a plausible conclusion that Sephiroth is a Heartless spawned from a tampering into Darkness on Cloud's part, which in turn, could leave Cloud as a Nobody.

If this would be better appropriated to a different section down the road, no hard feelings if it gets moved.

 

Considering that the Organization was more than likely in existence and operating during the events of Kingdom Hearts, even though they may not have been planned at that time, gives rise to the possibility of other Nobodies existing before the 'species' was unveiled.

The glory of that is that it's up to interpretation. I'd put more literal terms behind lines from the Cloud and Sephiroth than behind Goofy's.

This is a strong argument. But have there not been abnormally powerful Heartless throughout the span of the games? I recall that the Kurt Zisa boss was a Heartless, and the Keyblade didn't make the boss battle any easier. We never really see Sora engage Sephiroth outside of the boss battles, and whenever they end, Cloud rushes in and the two run off; so we never really get to see Sora land a decisive finishing blow. Sephy could just be an abnormally strong Heartless.

I don't think there's been a point where similar appearances between a person's Heartless and Nobody were ever signified as a rule. So far we've really only been made privy to two matched Heartless-Nobody pairs, Xehanort-Xemnas and Sora-Roxes, that latter of which yielded no similarity between the Heartless and Nobody; I'd say, that point remains inconclusive until we've been given more Heartless stated as relating to a previously seen Nobody.

And aren't the definitions of Heartless and Nobodies as follows:

Heartless = Beings born of the Darkness in Peoples' Hearts. Based on KH2's events, they also contain the Hearts of those who gave in to Darkness. Thus, Sephiroth, as (born of) the Darkness of someone's Heart, would if given the validity, be the Heartless.
Nobodies = The empty shells of bodies left behind once a Heart has been taken from strong-hearted person. Cloud, given the validity, would be the Nobody, being the physical and mental shell left behind.

I also understand that it's been outlined that Cloud's persona in KH is more... tame/unexpressive than it was in FFVII, which holds some ground with Nobodies, considering that the FF characters presented truer to their FF incarnations (IE Auron) retained the basic elements of their FF personalities.

 

Perhaps his turn came at a time before the Organization had fully come around to its peak, allowing his existence to slip under the radar. Perhaps he simply fell in among other factions or employments before the Organization caught up with him.

More viably, though, I think Cloud would have refused any advance by the Organization to recruit him. Just think of the implications of joining the Org versus working for Hades:

Joining the Organization = being indoctrinated into a (theoretically, considering the coup) structured faction, in which members are numbered based on when they joined, and ultimately made subservient to others that have either been there longer, or who have earned high praise from the Number 1. Inevitably, one joining the Organization as a fresh, new member, would start either on a low or middle step of the ladder, depending on their usefulness.

Working for Hades = As stated by Hades in a cutscene preceding Cloud's match with Sora, Cloud was under a contract, implying something more of a mercenary relation with Hades. A relation in which he (Cloud) did Hades a favor, and in turn received a favor that, in his eyes, was worth enough to make working for Hades an attractive prospect.

The latter situation just seems to be more Cloud's style. I doubt that a man that charges off alone to face his greatest rival, shrugging off someone who has been searching as hard for him as he has for said rival, would be keen on integrating into a group such as the Organization. Cloud wants to operate more freely than that, call his own shots and work alone as often as possible. In some incarnations he's even declined to join Sora's team.

EDIT: Let's also not forget that Cloud pretty much backed out of his contract with Hades when he realized that he'd have to dirty his hands on Sora as well (Hades, informally trying to alter his own agreement). Certainly, with the way the Organization is notorious for manipulation, he'd have backed out of that once he realized just what was going on, realizing that he had been a pawn.

Does a statement like the one you quoted not comprise the core of a rhetorical question is? Rhetorical questions are meant to be taken more as statements. In this case, in asking the question, Sephiroth can be interpreted as stating that he's fully aware of his connection to Cloud.

This can illustrate a point in how the argument of metaphorical talk can be applied in favor of the relation I've postulated. As I've said, there's plenty of room for interpretation in all of their lines. Who's to say that their other lines aren't meant to be taken literally, and that this statement is a metaphor to say that even if Sephiroth is defeated by the Keyblade, and Cloud regains his Heart, there will still be Darkness in it, and thus, Sephiroth can only truly be defeated if Cloud can first conquer the Darkness within himself.

They go down as a result of the battles that take place as part of the gameplay. Pretty much every boss battle in Kingdom Hearts is followed by a cutscene in which the boss ultimately succumbs to the damages dealt by the player; there are few battles that I can think of that are followed up with a cutscene of the player character doing battle and easily defeating their foe, as though the gameplay battle didn't happen. This renders the battles as the only measure of just how powerful the bosses actually are.

Again, I beg the question: was it ever stated that there was a rule about appearances?

Weren't there Heartless that weren't wrapped in a cloak of darkness? And aren't there supposed to be higher functioning Heartless that abound anyways?