Capital Punishment

You are actually retarded. Im sorry, but you are. How the hell are we gonna form a prison out of a mountain and then lock people there? That is so stupid when we already have conventional prisons. Now you are just pulling crap out of anywhere you can reach some crap. Also, did you just wish death on me? Wow dude, are you alright? "kill him for arguing against murderers, then throw the murderers in a mountain some place!!! get me some more rum!!!" wtf man, I have never wished death on you hahahahaha.

 

*Sigh* You can be so nasty in these debates. No seriously, the tone of your posts are the same as the people that make ass's of themsleves towards me every day. I would prefer not to put you in the group of the foolish. I merely put the mountain forward as an EXAMPLE stating that we oughta put em somewhere they can't break out of. You know anyone who would try to tunnel through solid rock to escape prison? Not just concrete but solid bedrock. That was what I was getting at.

 

Dude, there is no such thing as an impregnable defense. No matter where you are, if you want it bad enough you can escape. Well, unless you rocket them to the moon or something (just in case that was your next idea) and you think that IM BEING NASTY? haha don't talk, you just wished death on me a few posts ago, so I think you take the prize. The group of the foolish... is that full of everyone who out debates you? (OOOOHHHH Pwnedzors)

 

Honestly, you use your temper to easily. He was stating your death hypothetically and never said that he wanted you to die.

You're just making an ass out of yourself with how your acting.

 

It was hypothetical. And you have to be placed in every situation. If you have never had some one close hurt, never murdered, never even thought about what goes on in every other persons head, then you have NO right to push the button. You would doubtless be unable to. If I am wrong then you have truly descended into a place none should go. You would wish something on a complete stranger and show hate than showing love and try to help that person come out of the darkness that binds them. I wish for people to have a chance at learning from their mistakes. Is that so wrong? Should I kill some one for killing and thus seal my own death instead of giving that man a chance to correct him self and try to make him/her self a better person? Should I murder every man woman who comes from war because they have killed and commited that same horrific sin as the person slated for murder? Is the world you want full of hate? Is that what you wish? Or do you want to live in a better world? A world that is not hate ful. A place were people are happier instead of saddened inside by the grief of a world that is to harsh. Choose. Thats all I have to say on this subject.

 

Thats a pathetic naive Ideal. There is no such thing as a world full of love, because no matter how hard you try you can never erase the "darkness" from people. Human's are just as evil as they are good, and for every good you have a bad. If you have 100 people who love their brothers, then you have 100 people who kill their brothers.

How would you seal your own death by commiting the death penalty? Please stop pulling religion into this because you and I differ greatly in terms of religion.

War in and of itself is one massive self-defense. Both sides are defending each other from the other. Don't pull in "sin" because I don't believe in Sin or christianity.

Learning from your mistakes is a good thing, regarded its not a mistake that rips apart the lives of other people. If someone does something so cruel to other people than they deserve the same fate.

Although I have to admit I love talking to you because you show that naive lack of cynicism that I hope isn't lost on people in the future. It's what keeps the human race going, that little glimmer of hope that somehow things will improve, when they never will. Thats why I've taken this side. By removing such criminals from the world they are no longer in the public, meaning people like you can be naive and untainted, and keep the little hope that every life is worth saving.

 

*Sigh* You don't know what you speak of. You have no idea. A person should ALWAYS have the chance to learn from there mistakes. That includes murder. The only reason we aren't all happy is one thing. Stupidity. Thats right. We fail to think everything through. I want to be a person who attempts to correct that. I do believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and Earth. I do believe in Jesus Christ, the son that saved us from our sins and welcomes us to his home when we choose to accept him into our lives. I kill myself for executing some one because with every killing a person makes, their soul is torn. I refuse to do that to myself. As for army, can you say that both sides just got too defensive? Can you also say that someone doesn't go to war just because they want to kill some one else? No, you can't. Not honestly.

 

We are back to the "you are making shit up" part again. You expect me to provide fact when all you provide is possibilities. I don't care about you're religion. At all. That has no affect on this debate for me, so STOP bringing it in because its just makin you look like an annoying Jehova's witness. And sure, lots of armies in asia and pan asian areas commit atrocities every day. But when a force goes to fight them, can you say that isnt defense? And you don't want to do that to yourself? Then don't pull the trigger. Thats why executions are done by a third party, so you hold no personal inolvment (although I'd prefer to do it myself). And it has nothing to do with thought, because even when we DO think things through, crime still comes to mind, and people still select it. You are speaking from some omnicient position that you know all and are trying to enlighten us, when really you know no better than anyone else. You speak as if all people are good and would never select evil, which is a stupid thought. And no, you don't deserve to learn from your mistakes in such a case. Does the family of the murdered get to learn from their mistake and make sure that person isnt murdered a second time? No, they get one chance, and so thats what the killer deserves (only one chance).

 

There isn't a world full of love because people like you are pessimistic and can't love people and truly see their interconnectedness. I feel bad for your statement.

And also, this paradigm that there's a "good" and an "evil" is completely arbitrary. Don't ever claim that you need a negative to create a positive. Ever. That is ignorant and in no way has any basis on reality, because being as sophisticated as we are, we can operate without the values that we believe. We only THINK that bad and evil coincide because our values and governments tell us that, and we are raised to that value system.

War isn't self defense, it's a lucrative tool used by governments and banks to make money. It has nothing to do with defending a nation, because if nations were ruled by honest people and not elites, we wouldn't have war at all.

And yet you don't know the history, the persons true past for which might've caused that action? People are a product of consequence and placing that kind of hatred on them is worse than the physical killing a person goes through in regards to the capital punishment.



Also, in regards to this....

You need to rethink your basis from which you extrapolated that thought, because society and war doesn't run on good and evil. Stop with that shit.

I can't believe you'd bring something so irrelevent up in the midst of your "debate." (The omniscent bit).

 

You misunderstand me. I am not all knowing. That is the right of god and jesus. I am not one of those so I can't claim that. I CAN claim to understand the hearts of people. We are indeed wicked creatures but we are also good. We are all born with two choices. There is not a third or forth and to think so would be foolish. The two choices are to do good, and to do evil. Those that choose good should rise above those that do evil. Yes Hitler deserved to die and was given every chance. He refused those chances and killed himself knowing that he could never win. I hope that he had realized what he had done and regreted it but that is hoping for to much. Those that do evil should be tought what it is they are doing. No person on earth every sees themselves as the "Bad Guy" and must be shown what it is to be a good person. I use possibilities because I debate the future not the past. What has been done has been done and we should learn from those mistakes that we have made. In this case I debate possible out comes of the future. That is what I mean. I see everyone with the potential to do good and therefore see everyone with a good center. No one is born twisted. They make themselves that way.

 

I am a very vengefull person who beleaves that the current death penalty is a little too lax. A lethal injection is not nearly what they deserve from the crimes commeted. I also beleave that there are only a few crimes worthy of the capital punishment.

Child abuse,
Rape and
Murder

 

Okay hear me out. First, I agree with it. We should use it more often. Second Humans are born "evil." There is no hope for us, UNLESS we are with God. It is by his word and teaching that we can ever hope to be any amount "good." Now, the capital punishment needs to be used more, yes, but to a degree. I mean this in the sense not that more people need to die for their wrong doing, but in the sense that there are people that are sentenced for this and yet they sit there for years sucking tax payer money. So we need to speed up the proses.

 

(The first quote comes from the "Pornography" Thread)

I'm not sure which of the three topics to post this in...however, I have something relevant to add to this (capital punishment) one in the end...so I picked it. I also don't mean to pick on you, please don't feel that way.

Your stance in the Pornography thread is quite literally, simply read from the bible...and yet, in the cannibalism as well as this, the capital punishment threads, you express two drastically non-Christian viewpoints. What I'm curious of, is why the discrepancy? I'm not as familiar with the bible as some, but I'm pretty sure there are many, many references that would go against Capital Punishment, as well as Cannibalism...but you seemed to fixate on the premarital sex issue? It seems a little strange to me. After all, "Thou Shalt not Kill" is Commandment 5 (or 6 in certain Christian religions), while "Thou Shalt not covet Thine Neighbour's Wife" (which is refering to premarital sex) is Commandment 9 (or 10 in these same religions).

(For those unfamiliar, The 10 Commandments are listed in descending order of importance. All 10 are important, but number 1 is most important, 10 the least).

With your response here, I'm finding a similar discrepancy. You begin by essentially saying, people are flawed until they are with God...which in some strange way, could be a reason to support the death penalty (but then it would also condone mass suicide..which is definitely not ok, religiously). But then, your punch line is about taxpayer money...which has nothing to do with the bible, or religion. Money is a human creation and necessity, wasting money isn't really a religious reason to allow death.

Again, I really don't mean to pick on you...I just thought you could somehow explain yourself. I'm just not quite sure what to expect next!

 

First, Im not good with the quoting thing, so please bare with me. Second Im sorry if I was confusing. I will do the best I can to help this along.

Mike you said that you are not too familiar with the Bible. Okay, it is stated in the Bible in four separate book, talk about cannibalism. Every time that cannibalism is brought up, it is always in the form of a curse or punishment. But it never once says anything that cannibalism is against Gods will. But the thing is that the only way that someone will do it, is if they are deprived of mind, or its in a survival situation. And then, you can NOT kill someone else just so you can live. That is murder.

No onto this matter. You said that the Bible says, ""Thou Shalt not Kill"", I do not know what type of text you are reading, but I have never heard it this way. I have always heard, and I quote form the Bible sitting next to me. "You shalt not murder." The foot notes that my Bible give say that the word murder refers to the premeditated and deliberate act of killing another individual without juste means. God himself actually commanded Moses to kill all of the leaders of Israel, Numbers chapter 25. So its that I am against murder, not punishment or the capital punishment, which are both justified in what they do.

You also made a false statement in says "thou shalt not covet thine neighbor's wife" as reference to premarital sex. The actual commandment the deals with this is "You shalt not commit adultery." The covet commandment is saying that one should not either idol over or wish one had what someone that has better things than yourself. Or more easily put desire something with evil motivation.

What I was getting at in the "people are evil.." is that there will always be more people that are going to end up in prison, and sentenced to death. I was also saying that the tax money, and yes it has nothing to with religion, is being waisted. So in this statement I show that even though I am a man of God, I still have my Fleshly moments. I worry about money and unimportant things, its humanly to do this, but it is out of our power to do anything about it. So I have just proven my point about there is evil in all of us.

I do hope this helps things some. If not please let me know.

 

When I said unfamiliar with the bible, I more meant I'm not going to leaf through it to argue scripture with you...I haven't studied the bible enough to know what it means to me on a personal level. I've yet to feel inspired to do so, and as far my beliefs come from what I've experienced, and felt within...or so I'd like to believe anyway.

But there are countless verses that suggest that we should honour the dead...that much I do know. Verses stating that people are not like the rest of creation, that we are in God's image, all sorts of things.

The discrepancy comes from the fact that you are one of the Christian religions I was refering to, wherein "Thou Shalt not Murder" is commandment 6, and "Thou shalt not covet" is lumped together to form commandment 10.

I on the other hand am Catholic, so we do use "Thou shalt not kill," and it's Commandment 5. I quote you both, from the bible on my shelf, and Wikipedia which outlines the differences (I did a quick search to make sure I'm not spouting hot air):

Ten Commandments - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Check the first footnote for Thou Shalt not Kill.

Also I'm not sure if you're concerned about "Thou" vs. You or not, but Thou is actually the proper one. Bibles featuring "You shall not" are translations deliberately put into newer English for ease of understanding...but that's all that this discrepancy is, a translation issue. Since the Bible was originally in Hebrew, and few people are alive who actually know Ancient Hebrew, (mis)translation is a recurring problem that is argued about between Christian denominations till the cows come home.

To be specific, you are probably using a version of the Bible such as the King James edition...whereas a Catholic version of the bible is something like The New Hebrew edition. (Take home point: They're different versions, with slightly different biases)

Footnotes don't mean anything unfortunately...they're not the bible, they're a person's personal spin on what the bible says. (To be technical, even our English translations are not 'the bible' as they contain the unintentional biases of the translators...they are instead 'faux-bibles' if you will, which give a nudge in the right direction, toward the holy scripture (which is infact, in Hebrew). I can go into more detail on this if you like...but I'd like to point out that this does not necessarily point out a flaw in the bible...it points out a flaw in spoken language).

No you're right, but I think you misunderstood what I was saying...I probably said it wrong anyway, it was kind of late at night...so I'll just cut my losses.

My intended point was that masturbation (ie. 'spilling one's seed') or mere lust is not classed as adultery in the bible...I'm pretty sure it's an act of 'wanting' something that is not yours (covetting). It's like you said, "Or more easily put desire something with evil motivation."

The major point I was making still stands though, that adultery comes after murder...either way.

And yet, like I said, your motivation is an Earthly one. Regardless of your Christian denomination, you either believe that one is saved through belief in Christ, or that one must make penance...and either way, the death penalty robs one of time to either convert to Christianity (the first case), or make amends for their wrongdoing on earth, where things aren't permanent. That's more the point I was making with the last bit.

 

Well We both have valid points to the debate, and for what I can tell neither one of us is going to back down. We come from different backgrounds and teachings, so what we know we feel to be correct, or more right rather.

But what you have said makes me ask. Do all sins weigh the same punishment? I believe they do. So regardless of what we do, its all the same level of bad.

And I believe you are saved by believing in Christ, that he died for our sins, and rose again to give us eternal life with him. But along with that, I personally feel that it is not enough to just say one has done it, but one must change his life style. Start being more Christ like.

 

From the other thread: You asked how that is denying the chance of conversion:

Think about it; Many people who commit murder aren't exactly your top of the line religious people. Some can be...but most aren't. So they're sitting in a jail cell and get the death penalty...instead of being given say, 10-50 years to find God, you're giving them like half a year, during which they will probably start resenting God if anything. Many people experience deathbed conversions, but not so many experience remorse when given the death penalty.

You might say, 'but they probably won't convert anyway' and you're absolutely right...very few people would convert in that situation (life in prison). But we (human beings) by executing them, are denying God the right to call them to Him, to inspire them to believe.

This is where the personal beliefs start to become relevant. Many of my beliefs come from the simple idea that God is perfection, and that we don't understand what God is, or why He does things.

On the one hand, if they're the same level of bad, why have the 10 commandments at all? If every sin is just as bad as one another, why list them?

It's because (in my opinion of course) we are still being given guidelines for life that we must follow. We need to be good people.

But what does this mean?

Does it mean God's gift of His only son is any less powerful? The answer is no. It simply means we can't expect salvation because of a divine gift. We must still strive to live our very best, and come when God calls us. **

I think that's the problem (yes, problem) with some Christians...they're the first to point fingers and say "Catholics aren't Christians because they believe you need to be sorry!" Or "Aborted babies can't go to heaven, they haven't accepted Jesus as their personal savior!" and yet I somehow doubt that's what Christ would say.

(Infact, I'm glad I don't live in the US, since Catholic discrimination is at an all-time high, for this exact reason.)

I was once at a "making peace" lecture, where an Islamic Emam and a Christian Minister were discussing the similarities of the religions, trying to ease religious persecution on my university campus...I must say, I felt a little more Islamic that night, since the Emam was giving all the right messages....Peace, God's love, all the nice warm fuzzy stuff. The Christian Minister on the other hand said "Everyone here who's Muslim is going to hell." And then he went on to make assanine metaphors, like "God is like Pac-Man, eating inside you." (I kid you not!)

What you're saying here is like the double stars ** I noted above. In a Christian's eyes, that is doubt. You're not accepting Jesus as having paid the full debt on your sins, bringing you to salvation. You still believe you have to do your part.

But on the other hand, what I believe, is that being a good person, acknowledging that we are imperfect, and trusting God's mercy (ie. Christ's death and resurrection) will allow us to be with Him someday.

I think a lot of Christians are going to hell (by their own standards) simply because many of them talk the talk but don't walk the walk (as you're suggesting, that they should embrace a lifestyle, not an idea). How many Christians do you know who you couldn't tell are religious, outside of attending church? I know quite a few...I don't consider this belief in Christ.

 

I will respond to this, but I have to go to work.

 

Hey, The super debator is back all! I left a while and it will take me a while to catch up so i guess i can just begin again with an opener.

First off, I am way AGAINST this form of punishment. Lock em up, and throw away the key but dont kill them. We are strange creatures and all of us are born with a good and bad side. Sometimes the bad one surfaces and some one gets hurt, and some, yes, even get killed. However, you can't possibly kill someone and not be affected. Over time someone may even begin to regret what they did. I know i dragged this out of there for you all to shoot at but think about the movie Shaw Shank Redemption. In the end a man is brought before the Parole board and asked if, after being there 40 years, he is ready to return to society. After being dragged in front of them 2 times already and rejected each time he says, "What does that mean?" before they can finish explaining he interupts saying, "Oh i know what that means to you. What you should be asking me is 'Do i regret what i did?" "Well do you?" "There isn't a day goes by were i don't regret that decision i made all those years ago. I want to talk to that boy who commited that horrible crime, tell him the way things are. But i can't, and i have to live with that. But you just go on and stamp your papers, sunny jim. Because frankly, i dont give a damn." He gets his parole. The point is that he had commited murder, and he regrets it. Some people would clammer for his head, but i believe he got what he deserved. I'm glad that he learned his lesson. Im open to debate now.

 

To quote Ghandi: "An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind".

I won't even start with the contradictions of God verses Satan and bad people should be killed because it's the right thing to do, all I'll say is that if you kill someone; whether it be with a lethal injection, out in no-man's-land, in an electric chair, or in a cold-blooded attack; it's murder. Anyway, the main reason I don't agree with Capital Punishment, is because there's always the chance that someone's going to be put to death when they're actually innocent.

And to agree with Zerieth, guilt is much more effective of a punishment than just ending someone's life.