Religion

Wait. There's... Jediism? Holy shit...

I... I've lost the will to live...

Can people truly be that dumb? That's why religion just ticks me off. People do the stupidest stuff with it. I mean, if they're cool with it, and realize that holy books are meant to give morals not be taken word for word, then I'm fine, as long as they don't try to shove it down my throat.

 

i see where your coming from there Skyler, i never like it when ppl try to shove believes down a person's throat. But ive always have been in the train of thought that ppl should still have good moral values of being a nice person, and treating others as equals, this doesnt take a person being religous either, it just takes good basic human quality

 

Agreed.

Oh and uh, I think there's a rule against pornographic avatars/signatures. I would change them.

 

Jediism? Ugh. I am a Trekkie so I have a biased opinion.
I am confused religious wise. One week I am interested in paganism, the next I want to be good Christian, and then I want to be an atheist. I think I am not very religious or I haven't found the right path.

What's very interesting is that an Atheist has been trying to convert me...It feels wrong because that's exactly what religions due.

 

^^The only thing I recommend is not to 'seek' a religion for the sake of believing something (Not saying you're doing that, just saying be sure you don't). That's when you tend to 'flip flop around' like that. If you're genuinely interested in finding out what's out there, there's plenty of research you could do, ideas to bounce off of, and even scriptures to read. "The world is your oyster" in a sense.

 

I don't mean to double post, but as per Eb Al's request, I decided to post my own theory. This way, I'd bump the topic, since in the last post, I didn't say anything too enlightening. I warn everyone...this post may be extremely technical, without meaning to be.

Note that I'm not claiming this is the right philosophy to adopt, it's simply a philosophy I'm currently grappling with. I'm not even certain I believe it...since I definitely can't prove it's the right philosophy, and some of this may seem rather simplistic. But the idea behind it is that I'm trying to be as unbiased as possible...the only way to do this, is mathematically (ie. math is the only place we can actually 'prove' things happened, or will happen (see my discussion in the abortion topic on proof)). I hope it's at least an interesting read, as it will be rather tedious to type out! I jotted this down in my black book once in the middle of the night in a frenzy. The idea just seemed interesting to me, and since then I've thought of several consequences of this philosophy.

Source: My so-called 'little black book' of ideas (the equivalent of girls' phone numbers to me). I've added a few notes in (Edit: ) tags, for clarity.

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A Little Math
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The way I think about the afterlife, God, and all that stuff, is based on a simple concept: I don't believe anyone does, or ever will, understand God. God is marvelously complex and there is no chance of us ever 'figuring it all out' with our own human logic.

There is so much to think about in this universe, and it's overwhelming at times. That's why I tend to use a more 'mathematical' approach. Abstract Math is a fickle thing...we define things called 'axioms' (ie. things that are declared true without proof...generally unprovable things), and then we prove things by using these definitions. We in essence 'figure out' what 'the universe' (ie. what things are true) looks like using these rules. Then sometimes, we remove, or alter one of our axioms / conditions, and then look at how the universe has changed.

This may seem rather pointless, but there is a lot of enlightenment in these things.

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The Relevance
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So what does this have to do with God? Well by adopting a mathematical approach (after all, 'math is the language of God'), we would first need to adopt some axioms in order to have any hope of ever proving anything. (Edit: Note that I've generally adopted a monotheistic belief, and this whole thing is out of whack if you disagree...but here it is):

AXIOM 1: God exists, is perfect, omniscient and omnipotent, by definition.
AXIOM 2: Humans are flawed: No one will ever fully comprehend God.

(Edit: Axiom 1 basically means God always gets the benefit of the doubt. Axiom 2 basically says, no matter what we're inferring about God/creation/etc, we're not completely right).

Note that as per the earlier discussion, these axioms are UNPROVABLE. In addition, they can only be disproven given a different set of axioms, which are themselves, unprovable. (Edit: See Gödel's incompleteness theorems - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) Despite this, these are the two axioms I've accepted...the second one sounds kind of silly, since we're defining axioms with the hope of 'proving' things about the universe and God, however the second axiom says that I will never succeed in proving anything...confusing...yet it draws some interesting conclusions.

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Using the axioms
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Given that these two axioms hold, if I ever come to a point where I'm thinking "man, God must not be perfect" then by assumption (ie. Axiom 1), my logic is faulty and this is a contradiction. But it is also important to know that even this logic is subject to human and therefore erroneous logic (ie. Axiom 2). This should not only not be feared, but be expected, and even embraced. This also does not mean that 'because I can't find flaw in your argument, I can't claim it's a contradiction.' If it contradicts an axiom, it's wrong...even if I don't, and never will, know why.

(Edit: To put it more clearly, in math there are what are called 'handwaving arguments.' These are basically things that are 'clearly' true, but we cannot figure out how to prove. ie. I know that if you look at a piece of paper with a hole in it...if you cut the paper into two pieces, 1 and 2, so the hole remains intact, then the hole has to be in one piece or the other. This is obviously true...but how the heck would you prove this? By a handwaving argument it's true. I'm saying that if you give me a reasoned answers as to why God is imperfect, maybe I'm not smart enough to tell you why your logic is wrong, but by this system, it's wrong.)

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What conclusions?
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Consequence 1: This very philosophy is unprovable. Infact, Axiom 2 implies that it is false. This does not mean we should not explore other consequences, and it doesn't mean it is, or is not the 'best guess' we could ever get (Edit: I'm not being full of myself here...I'm just rambling to myself that it is nonetheless worth investigation)...it just means that this is not a perfect theory.

Consequence 2: God knows everything, so God knows exactly how the universe plays out. How can people end up in Hell, if God created them, knowing they will end up in Hell? Well, this would mean God is imperfect...a contradiction. It must be that either there is no Hell, or something deeper.

(Edit: This is one of the current theories I'm investigating under this philosophy from time to time)

If God can see everything, (omniscience, Axiom 1) then God can see the past present and future. Given this, God can still be perfect, if the people in Hell aren't really in Hell...or rather, someday, the universe will sort itself out.

Could it not be that God constructed the universe with the right initial parameters to ensure everyone eventually 'pays' for their sins and can join Him in Heaven? This is a possibility...but this would mean that the devil would not be exempt from this. Whether this draws a contradiction or not, I can't say for certain.

Consequence 3: If Evolution was God's means of creation, then God would have used death as a means of creation...this is an imperfection, thus contradicting Axiom 1. So either killing is not a sin, or evolution could not have happened. But suppose the first consequence, that killing is not a sin. Since God issued the ten commandments, one of which was "Thou shalt not kill," then God went again his own laws. This again, contradicts Axiom 1...thus given this system, and my own deductions, Evolution could not happen. (Edit: This is an example of human logic. I couldn't think of any other possible cases...that doesn't mean there aren't any! Maybe someone else could explain how Evolution could still fit in with this argument)

Consequence 4: Spacetime is non-repeating...our universe must either be linear, or 'tree-like' in nature. It could not be circular, or torus-like in structure.(Edit: I've omitted the details here, it's a bit technical, and not completely relevant)

(Edit: I've thought of several other interesting factoids: These were just the ones I saw immediately)

=-=-=-=-=-=-

From here onward, this is no longer the entry in my black book. Not to pick on EbAl, but I promised that my philosophy allows me to still believe God is perfect...so I owe some answers:

Let's try adopting my philosophy to address this issue. This clearly contradicts "Axiom 1" as I've called it...So God must not be changing his mind, and must be doing these things for a reason. Now we ask ourselves, "Does this make sense? Is there a reason?" Well, what about the reason posed in consequence 2? (Which I call the "It all works out in the end" theory). Basically saying, God created the world with all of these things in mind (original sin, etc). You may think putting humans through life, death and suffering is inhumane, and thus also would contradict Axiom 1...but you would have to consider what heaven would be like without this life.

Case 1: Everyone is identical in heaven. This would be a rather dull heaven...thus not exactly heaven at all. (Contradiction)
Case 2: Not everyone is identical in heaven. If we went straight to heaven, then people would be jealous of each other (how come he has blue eyes and I have brown? (even though this is a silly thing to argue about, it would happen!). Thus again, heaven would not be heaven very long if we went straight to heaven.

Allowing us to go through this life, possibly even through hell and its suffering, gives us the chance to 'earn' things in heaven...no one can, or will feel compelled to complain. Everyone deserves what everyone has...God planned things out this way.

An interesting thing to ponder: the fact that God promised He would never flood the world again does not mean He regrets flooding the world. Maybe that's the way it had to be, like a parent disciplining their child. He is now free to tell us He will never do it again, since in His plan, it is not necessary to do so.

The only additional thing to note, is that (in my opinion) creating something 'perfect' is the same as creating something that is 'eventually perfect' (again, the "It all works out in the end" theory). Unfortunately, this is based on my own logic...so I can't prove it's correct, by Axiom 2. It's simply 'my best guess' at responding to this question.

Well, this post was a mouthful...I somehow feel people will have trouble reading it...I apologize, it's rather late.

 

I honestly didn't think my brain could comprehend all that, but it did.
I do believe God to be omniscient. And God is perfectly divine. God never has made mistakes. And reading the axioms Mike used, I think those are both true in a way. We aren't just flawed, but our minds, which haven't seen and discovered all the secrets of the universe, simply cannot comprehend an all-powerful, all-understanding entity in physical form. Nor can we ever begin to take in everything that exists. That is why we seem flawed. Our minds aren't the problems, its the lack of knowledge that prevents us from seeing the whole picture.

 

I agree with Al. If god was all-knowing and perfect, how could he make mistakes, and why put Abraham through those trials? Why would hell exist is God has a predetermined map for every human? It took me a long time to deal with the axioms and all of that, but it does seem to me that by creating those unprovable axioms you are saying that the only way to disprove you is by making another disprovable theory. If thats true then its just "yeah thats true because it is". I honestly don't think god can control us. I think we get put here, and then he let's it play out the way we want it to. And going along with that, it means that god is in no way all knowing, because we have free will and free decision.

 

God is all knowing. We are givien free will to make our own choices. In truth, all God wants is our love and faith, our complete trust. You can't force a true love. He gives us free will to make our own path, and hopefully to see how much he loves us, so we can come to him ourselves.

Abraham was given those trials to test his faith and commitment to God. We are also tested, but not just by God, but by life and Lucifer himself. As we give in to sin and temptation, we open ourselves up to corruption and also to the Enemy.

God could control us, simply by displaying his power. But its not control he wants. Love and trust. There is no predetermined map for each of us. We choose our own destiny. Heaven or Hell. Salvation or Damnation. Its up to each of us to decide, and live accordingly to our own goals.

 

How can you know that god just wants our love? Did he tell you? The truth is that no one knows for sure what god wants or why. If god is all knowing then he already knows our destiny, so why give us the choice? And if god can control us, why CAN'T he force true love? Your argument contradicts itself alot and there are many holes in it, but i suppose thats true in any god based argument.

 

Okay, I just said there was NO predetermined map set for any of us. Our futures are NOT predetermined. We choose where we're going to end up by choosing to accept or deny God.

You can't force a true love. Not a stable one anyway. Tell me this. If you can force love, then you could probably get yourself a wife by beating her into it. That won't work. You have to base it on trust and respect. Presisely what God is aiming for.

God could control us if he wanted to, but if he did, would we love him for it? Then he'd be no better than some power-driven dictator. There are no contradicitons in my previous statement.

If He didn't love us, do you honestly think that someone as powerful as him would have sacrificed so much?

 

See, apparently you and I differ on what you mean by "control" i dont mean god said so so I'm going to do it, I mean go takes you over and guides you how he desires. And if my version of control was the case then yes he could force you to love him because you would have no concious choice. What did he sacrifice? Jesus? People give their lives for a cause all the time. Also, It seems to me like he is a power driven dictator given the previous events. The flood and such is basically saying to me "you arent living the way i want you to, so die". And if there is no map for us, then god is NOT all knowing because he doesn't know where we are going.

 

@EbAl: You're absolutely correct in that my argument is not solid (infact, that was the first thing I proved). The only thing is that it's not really a 'proof' of anything, and nor does it actually use math to prove anything; It uses mathematical reasoning (namely that you can never contradict an axiom). It's more a philosophy (or style of thinking) than a sense of how things actually work.

The key idea is that, to me, God is defined as perfection. If you disagree, there's not much my philosophy can do for you on a personal level...and hopefully you know me well enough to know that I'm as far from the "It's like this because I said so" route as possible. I try to reason through as much as I can.

Whatever I can't reason through, I leave up to faith: that's what it's there for.

 

I just got here and really only looked at this page. I just have to ask. Why do you battle over something that has little or no proof behind it? I believe in god, he father almighty, maker of heaven and earth but can I actually prove that. Nope, not a bit.

 

God is creating these calamities to get people's attention so they can see that He is real, and does directly effect our daily lives on some level. He dosen't desire strife and pain for us, but rather Lucifer is bringing such things to us. God didn't make Jesus go to the Cross. Jesus prayed in Gethsymene, and asked God to let that pass from him, but said, "Your will be done.". And then Jesus knew what God wanted Him to do. So, following God's will, he let himself be put to the Cross. But anytime before that, He could have shouted for His Father to save him, and a legion of angel would have removed him, and they would have know he was the Son of God. But that would have too greatly influenced the outcome.

Zarieth's right. I can't prove what I'm saying, but I believe that the Bible tell all that needs to be known. So I'm stopping here.

 

I just find it foolish to read a book and base your life around it. If I said right now I was the son of god and wrote a book, would you read it and take it to heart? No, you would think I was crazy. Well, thats how I feel about all of this stuff now. Mental disorders can affect anyone it seems. I don't want to sound offensive but I find "faith" a way to dump your problems on something someone can't disprove. If someone dies you say "It was god's will" and hide from it behind a mask of a deity that you have no honest way to see, speak to, or KNOW. And honestly, how many of you converted to christianity or any religion after you could think for yourself. Most religious people were fed that stuff before they had the chance to think on their own. So I'll say it now, I don't think god has any power over us. I think we evolve from lower animals. I think that heavan and hell are stories to scare kiddies into being good. I think the prospect of "god" and the bible are basically ways to outline goodness in our lives, not literally waste our mortal existance for a glimmer of hope. I'm not afraid of "sinning" because I don't think any outlined guide on sin and goodness exists. And even if god does exist, I don't think he is so ficle that he would say "well, he commited a sin, so down to hell you go!" I think as long as your a truly good person, regardless of "sins" that you commit you would still go to "heaven". I was never baptized. I curse. I have premarital sex all the time (with one partner, im not a man-whore haha). But I still do good things. So given my record, if "god" exists do you think i would go to "heaven" or "hell"?

 

That's something I was over before. If we sin, all we need is to confess to Him and ask for his forgivness. That's it.

Sure, many times I've questioned my faith, because of things that have happened in my life. It really is hard to keep going when you see so much around you contradicting your beliefs. Truth is, Chrisianity is not a fall-back for those of us who truly follow it. We are constantly made fun of by TV, music, books, etc. We see our faith contradicted more than any other, because we say that our God is the only true God. And I believe He is.

 

I refuse to ask "his" forgiveness for something I enjoy. I don't think "he" has any right to an apology as to how I live my life. The christian religions god is the same god shown in judaism AND islam as well, its the same god, as is stated clearly via testaments.